(Katrina ~ conversation)

From "BACK OFF" ~comments.

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post date: 08.30.05 2:18 pm)

no one blames someone taking the minimum they need when nothing else is available. unfortunately, this isn't what is occuring in many instances. you see people taking carts and sacks and filling them up with whatever they can find of value. the act of exploiting tragedy has long been one of the most universally condemned acts possible by human beings. when someone is looking just for medical care and bread deserves not punishment or moral judgement. someone carrying out digital cameras and tv sets deserves both!
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post date: 08.30.05 (2:25 pm)

How exactly can one expoit one's own tragedy?
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post date: 08.30.05 (2:49 pm)

The ethics here aren't difficult. Are you suggesting that being a victim of a hurrican creates a right for the victim to further victimize other victims of the same tragedy?

First, New Orleans was under an evacuation order including having provided a safe location for everyone who could not evacuate for whatever reason. The order was irresponsibly ignored by thousands. Ironically, the people who ignored the evacuation order now are engaging in a good portion of the looting. It is widely known that many people hang around during big storms for the express purpose of looting immediately after the storm has passed.

Second, being a victim of a flood does not give you the right to steal your neighbors television set or to raid a local store of their products.

Third, the fact that a tragedy involves your own loss does not change the heinousness of the act of calous exploitation of your fellow citizens.

Fourth, businesses will likely recover only a fraction of their losses via insurance payments. Every single item that can be salvaged will be critical for many small business owners who are typically hit the hardest by looters. Many business owners will lose everything they have and insurance will not even pay enough for them to ever dream of rebuilding their places of businesses. New Orleans will suffer a massive rise in unemployment for at least 24 months partially resulting from the loss of small business jobs that went under with the hurricane.

So, that's how a person can exploit a tragedy that is their own tragedy.
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post date: 08.30.05 (3:07 pm)

I think that we have two different perspectives on this, and that's ok by me.

I'm coming at it from the angle of being poor, often discriminated against, unemployed/unemployable, disabled, often homeless and having REALLY shitty luck in life.

To me, the way I see it, no business owner will be hurt any worse than the people looting already are.

Looting houses? That's not what I'm talkng about here. I'm talking about grocery stores and drug stores, which are what the media are reporting about, and where the cops and soldiers are posted with shotguns.
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post date: 08.30.05 (4:38 pm)

Fair enough. I still strongly disagree and believe you are arguing from emotino without any ethical base from which to support your view of the situation. I would guess most of people looting aren't any worse off than you or I or the owners and employees of the stores they are robbing.

Also, I've watched hours and hours of the coverage and I've seen very little hyper focus on the looting and it isn't primarily the grocery stores that are being protected -- it is the stores where there are high potential for larger loses. Pharmacies are a natural target -- not because people need medication but because they can get thousands of dollars of street value controlled substances and leave with it in their pockets! lol!

This isn't human compassion issue! It is a human decency issue.

I just searched for pics on looters on google and 90% of them are carrying TV's, radios, and other types of high value items. I saw not a single picture of someone simply carrying some food in a bag to feed their kids. In fact, it seems they leave food so that they can carry more stuff!!!

Not an important point to me, either way. I just thought your righteous indignation was a little misplaced.

Ciao'! :-)
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post date: 08.30.05 (4:49 pm)

Actually, I am pretty bad off, and I've been worse off, very recently.

Yes, this WAS an emotional outburst. A "rant", if you will.

In your browsing of photos, did you happen to notice the COLOR of the people looting? How about the color of most of the people in most of the pictures?

To me, this societal judgement is all about race and class.

Sometimes, when you're one of the "Have Nots" in America, with an income under $10,000 a year... and you've had it up to your eyeballs with being spit on... and then everything gets even worse, you don't give a rats ass about poor pooky who lost his store.

Let them steal the damn drugs. The Haves can call it amnesty.

I call it giving people a damn break.

Yes. Very emotional.
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post date: 08.30.05 (5:10 pm)

Have you ever been to downtown New Orleans? It's about 75% black so it is no surprise that the pics show blacks looting in downtown New Orleans. Race has nothing to do with it for me nor does this particular context. The fact is that it is no less wrong to steal from your neighbor after a hurricane than it is to steal from them any other time. To suggest otherwise is just nonsensical and misplaced compassion. Now, I just watched a news report that went to great pains to point out that many were simply taking food and supplies for survival. I agree with you that this is very different. Why can't you agree that taking a TV set is just plain wrong? I'm not saying these people are evil -- I'm just saying its a sad human commentary -- that's all. Your Marxist view of social justice is noted and understood, by me anyway. Your latent anger at anyone who happens to succeed at something is also pretty transparent. I have no issue with that either. Its your issue.
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post date: 08.30.05 (5:34 pm)

Yes, it's my issue.... and this is my blog, where I can vent on those issues. Sometimes, I need to vent. It doesn't matter whether it's logical to anyone else or not. I need to blow off steam.

I don't know that I can say that it's wrong to take the tv set. I find it completely understandable.

I didn't think that Robin Hood was wrong either.

I find it to be a sad human commentary that people have had it so bad that they have the need to steal tv sets.
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post date: 08.30.05 (5:57 pm)

yes, its your blog, i quite understand that... i thought you might quite enjoy having a go 'round with me regarding the nuances of this issue that can be seen from many viable angles, as you and i have proven here in this little debate.

i enjoyed the debate... i'm sorry you didn't :-)

what we agree very strongly about is that this is a terrible human tragedy and that we should all focus on compassion rather not judgement. the looting is no surprise and is a minor part of the overall economic impact for us all.

oh, and nobody needs to steal tv sets! (couldn't resist) :-)
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post date: 08.30.05 (6:17 pm)

:p

"what we agree very strongly about is that this is a terrible human tragedy and that we should all focus on compassion rather not judgement."

This is true.

Thanks for the conversation. I do enjoy that. ;)